Option 2. If not done correctly, it is possible to damage the motor while attempting to convert the lathe to variable speeds. Answer A tree stump two feet in diameter makes that treadmill go fast. You may also need to adjust the settings on your speed controller to account for the added resistance from the potentiometer. Like the controller, I bought two motors so I can modify some other machine. This risk can be minimized by following all safety procedures and wearing the proper safety equipment. Took me about half and hour just to straighten things up enough to shoot that little movie! 2 run to the shunt-field current , 2 run to the armature. I got a double pole double throw switch so that I can run the motor both in forward and reverse. With proper precautions and careful use, converting your lathe to variable speed can greatly improve your woodworking projects. Go through until you find a winner. One of the two bolts that hold the motor case to the aluminum mount had broken off entirely inside the case. Gemini Controls Treadmill Drive Installation & Adjustment, In our case we chose to mount the motor below the table and run the belt down rather than behind the lathe as was original design shown in the illustration below. I took the electronics, wiring, and, of course, the motors. Because no matter who you are, you deserve to experience the very best. In their place I used jumper wires to a 5k linear pot. Is Converting a Lathe to Variable Speed Cheaper Than Purchasing a Lathe Comes with Speed Controls? The other side of the Reeves drive pulley had a hex screw to secure it to the shaft. (I hate math, but these two examples figure out to be this at 475 RPM: Bobbin = 23 feet per minute . One warning about variable speed. To complete this project we bought the following items off of Amazon. Here is the link, Inspiring Media Inc. o/a Canadian Woodworking. $523.00 Option 2; Upgrade to a the new 2 hp brush less motor with controller. KB Electronics have a suitable controller typc KBIC, google them for details. Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo Comment PostCancel Thread Continues Below. Visual Explanations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFVuJ0hwNnw&t=194s. Now, with this post, so are you. I suspect it would be ok to remove fan blade entirely but monitor motor closely. Ball screws and axial bearings - $130. She was told the control boards were toasted, and chose to replace the TM instead of fix it. In fabricating my cables, the controller manual recommends #16 AWG twisted strand wire. Pacific Scientific. I like the idea of fitting a handle in the back-end of the mainshaft! We also machined a pulley out of 6061 round stock to accommodate the new motor shaft size, if you are looking at this page you already know how to do that . This conversion is absolutely awesome and highly recommended and should have been done by us a long time ago. Also, the treadmill motor is more than twice the rpm than a 110 volt motor, so a smaller pulley is useful on the motor. Once you have signal, epoxy the magnet in place and let it cure. Reading over the various potential modifications, I decided the DC motor needed to come fairly early in the process for several reasons. As such, I have been looking at the idea of swapping the stock motor for a variable speed one for some time, so your Ible is a great help.Then it's off to the drill press.THANKS. Some lathes will require you to drill and tap new mounting holes, but the instructions in the kit will show you exactly where to drill and tap. We are getting less than 20,000 hours out of the bearings on that motor before they start to fail - a fraction of the life we should be getting. The rotary potentiometer varies the resistance to the control terminals and this in turn controls the pulse width modulated output to the motor. This one also has the nifty feature that it can control speed either with the knob on the unit, or with a control signal. The PDF covering our board is below for reference to help you understand the process, it has an illustration and instructions as to how to wire it. After digging around a bit, I see a lot of people more knowledgeable on matters of electronics point out we can get better performance of our rectifier-controller circuits by adding a D.C. capacitor across the positive and negative D.C. output terminals of the bridge rectifier.It's indicated the first and most important thing in choosing a cap is, the voltage. This forum is dedicated to those hobbyists with the 3-in-1 metalworking machines. Reply Looking closer, I decided that sure enough, it was way too loose, and I could see considerable play in the motorit wasnt securely mounted! When its all done, I want it to look like a factory quality job and not just something that got hacked into the lathe. The answer to this question depends on a few factors. The Reeves drive just needed lubing and a new control handle. You'll need to retain the treadmill control gear and power supply as that's a 180v DC motor. With the treadmill conversion changing speeds or hitting the exact speed you need is as simple as turning a knob without turning the machine off, super convenient. Tip Posts: 744. Reply Likewise, the maximum is 4000 rpm, and this is on a lathe whose old motor had a 1725 rpm maximum. I have had to bore out pulleys before to accommodate these odd dc motor drives, but never one as big as a step pulley. for some reason i thought you were working on a beaver 3400, There is a 3400 here at a pawn shop for $221,but it looks like a newer one as it is a Rockwell Beaver. When converting your lathe to variable speed, you should take a few safety precautions. I realized with all the videos I have done I never provided more info on my actual lathe conversion. Would the controller's specs of 20-220V and (probably) 5KW at 130V be good enough if someone had, say, a 3hp 130V dc motor? I also bought a bridge rectifier to change the AC from the motor controller to DC. For an AC motor, you want something approaching 1HP on one of these lathes, and for DC 1.2 would be ideal. Variable Speed Lathe Motors. kaustin | Posted in Turning and Carving on July 4, 2009 03:14am. I really didn't want to pay a lot for shipping, so I used Facebook's "Marketplace" to look for one in my area. ), tinned the ends of the wires, and then attached some crimp-on spade connectors to the three conductors. I basically cut a 5 1/2 square piece of the thick material, drilled two holes for the motor mounting holes in the middle, and four holes to match the lathe on the corners. @jimil. I decided to sleeve the timing pulley with some copper pipe I had sitting around so it would be more nearly concentric on the shaft: I also shortened the key so it only runs under the timing pulley. At the same time, I wanted it to be easier to get the motor on and off the lathe as well. The picture shows how to do the wiring. Opinions? i cant see your pics for some reason, but the video looks pretty cool. Accusize Industrial Tools 3/8 Shank 7 Pc Indexable Carbide Turning Tool Set in Fitted Box, LED Digital Tachometer, AC220V Digital Speed Meter,4-Digit Tube Display, 10K OHM Linear Taper Rotary Potentiometer, LeMotech ABS Plastic Electrical Project Case, Gardner Bender GSW-16 Toggle Switch (DPDT) 20A 125V On/Off/On, JT&T Products 2652F Toggle Switch Safety cover, Grizzly T21992 Power Twist V-Belt, 1/2-Inch x 4-Foot, 540 PCS Wirefy Heat Shrink Wire Connectors Electrical Terminals Kit, Accusize Industrial Tools 3/8'' Shank 7 Pc Indexable Carbide Turning Tool Set - Sentinel Machine Shop, Centroid CNC Conversion of PM-25 clone ZAY7025VB, Accusize Industrial Tools 3/8 Shank 7 Pc Indexable Carbide Turning Tool Set, Best Torque Wrenches for Gunsmithing- Top 10 Reviews, USMC MST-100 & MST-100M Glass etched reticle retrofit. Turn on the lathe and test the new motor. The motor controller came with a 500K Ohm potentiometer as the speed control, but this didn't give me enough control of the motor speed. The control board has seven connections you will need to make. The control board has a seven connections you will need to make, three terminal connections that a 10,000 OHM rotary potentiometer is connected to. One motor was rated at 2.0 horsepower, and the other at 1.8 horsepower.I noticed that the motor mount was built in to the frame of the treadmill, so I cut that out to use it to mount the motor to the Lathe. The second one was the finished product.that you saw in the movie. 97. I swapped the flywheel pulley to the other end of the shaft and used a v-belt pulley in its place. Second, there is a lot of bang for the buck. It is similar in size to Sieg SC4 lathe but it has a AC reversible motor and belt and pulley system for speed control. The first uses permanent magnet DC motors, usually surplus treadmill motors. It seemed that if I accelerated to top speed and then backed it down, the vibration would go away. Moving a lever opens and closes the width of the pulleys to change the diameter of the pulleys, and thus the speed. Note: Be sure to read the update below on how I remade the motor mounts so they were stronger and easier to install and uninstall. owner informed me that the motor running the treadmill was a $300 motor. New 2.5 HP 130VDC 10A 4500RPM CW rotation Treadmill Replacement Motor. You are using an out of date browser. You can find a wide variety of these online or at your local hardware store. I dialed it up to 30 or 40 rpm at the minimum. It ran perfectly once I stuck a paint stick into the plastic key slot. For clarity's sake that is not a drum switch, it is a double throw toggle switch. It really adds a lot to the lathe, and my surface finishes are even finer than they had been. Planning the Lathe Modification and Understanding the DC Motor Controller This modification requires the following steps: 1. Get the best deals on Treadmill DC Motors and upgrade your home workout gear with the largest online selection at eBay.com. If I put in the 1725 rpm motor my fastest speed would be about 700 rpm. Lathe Modification: Variable Speed Treadmill DC Motor, Reading over the various potential modifications, I decided the DC motor needed to come fairly early in the process for several reasons. Not sure that my equipment can handle it. If you're looking at South Bend countershafts, keep in mind that the lathe's headstock needs a place to attach the linkage that allows for adjustment of belt tension. You will need to fabricate a bracket for your application and mount the sensor and magnet. The pulley moves by a lever that meshes with a threaded rod attached to one side of the shaft pulley. Sep 21, 2019 at 8:52pm. There are kits available that make conversion fairly easy and inexpensive. Thanks for the tip. Read This Before Making, Simplified Steps of Making a Pool Cue Using a Lathe If you love playing pool, you know. Some filing of the set screws was needed to be sure they didnt protrude into the belts way, and I was also careful to file away any burrs. I don't know why you can't see the pics but do appreciate your comments. J Tiers Senior Member If during the install you have trouble getting a tach signal, flip the magnet over, stick it back on your spindle and try again, sometimes the change in polarity helps. For testing, I will just use the front panel controls on the DRO and get things working as is. Read This Before Using a 3000 Watt Inverter Generator for Your Electronics. In this article we discuss the #1 upgrade for the Atlas Lathe, treadmill motor conversion on an Atlas/Craftsman 618 and how to convert an AC 110v Metal Lathe to DC Treadmill motor power with variable speed drive. We'll show you 8 brands that are far better than the average screwdriver. There are different techniques for you to get this done. The link belt is easy to adjust size as necessary and it also does not hold a set like regular v-belts which cause machine vibration and chatter in small lathes. That turned out to be a non issue. The first factor is the cost of the lathe. The tachometer kit comes with the tach, sensor and magnets. Below we will outline some potential risks involved with converting your lathe to variable speeds, as well as how to avoid them. There are two types; electronic only (no moving parts) and rotary converters (1P motor drives 3P generator) which are used for higher horsepower industrial type lathes. You do center drill all of your holes, dont you? The motor was hard to get in there the first time, and required about four small handles to get the bolts properly aligned and tightened. Leo Van Der Loo Member Join Date:May 2007 Posts:10830 Actually, it's three bolts. 1) Find a used 3Ph motor and run it on a VFD. Highly recommended! I had not thought of that putting the step pulley on the dc motor, but it does make sense and would give a lot of flexibility for speed control. Surface Feet Per Minute represents the "ground speed" of the wood going past your cutter. Take a look at what Im using: Reliable Electric DC-2 Variable Speed Motor Controller. Broken mounting bolt. ;)I fell in love with variable speed motors long ago. v belts dont require lots of tension to function properly. Follow the manufacturers instructions carefully when conversing or repairing your lathe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAkiature=youtu.be, http://www.usedvictoria.com/classifi-lath_28553158, http://www.usedvictoria.com/classifi58910_28226874. III. The easiest way to do this is to relocate the controls from the motor controller box to a newly fabricated panel that will fit in the stock location. Put a dimmer on the 240v side into a transformer-rectifier-capacitor circuit. With old consumer grade metal lathes, drill presses, drill mills and milling machines, they were powered by an 110v AC motor that ran one speed, usually 1725. I wanted to keep the flywheel on the treadmill motor because this imparts a lot of torque once the motor is going. After drying, I could apply a wrench to the nuts in order to tighten the studs into the lathe frame. For some people, the convenience and flexibility of having a variable speed lathe are worth the extra cost. Fast & Free shipping on many . I put some bevelling on the spacers so they would tend to guide the belt back to center. Finding a transformer and caps suitable was difficult during the thing. Next, remove the belt from the lathe. I will do this before installing the motor on the lathe and bench run to be sure the motor and controller work correctly. Treadmill motor with KBIC drive, not vfd, but you must leave the pulleys and belts to allow the motor to run at enough speed to provide the horsepower needed for slow speed deep cuts and drilling operations. You are using an out of date browser. Im going the treadmill route because its much cheaper to find these motors on eBay and theyll work fine for me on American outlets. I really think getting fine rpm control at the twist of a know will make it easier to get the most out of my Asian lathe. How to fit a DC Treadmill motor to a wood lathe WITH SPEED CONTROL! $289.00 . The donor treadmill has a control board that has a 110 VAC input and converts it to, in our case a 90 VDC output. Accusize Industrial Tools 3/8 Shank 7 Pc Indexable Carbide Turning Tool Set in Fitted Box, LED Digital Tachometer, AC220V Digital Speed Meter,4-Digit Tube Display, 10K OHM Linear Taper Rotary Potentiometer, LeMotech ABS Plastic Electrical Project Case, Gardner Bender GSW-16 Toggle Switch (DPDT) 20A 125V On/Off/On, JT&T Products 2652F Toggle Switch Safety cover, Grizzly T21992 Power Twist V-Belt, 1/2-Inch x 4-Foot, 540 PCS Wirefy Heat Shrink Wire Connectors Electrical Terminals Kit, RCBS Chargemaster 1500 positive long-term review, RCBS 9536 Rock Chucker Supreme and RCBS 90200 Hand Priming Tool review, Accusize Industrial Tools 3/8 Shank 7 Pc Indexable Carbide Turning Tool Set, Atlas Lathe awesome upgrade treadmill motor conversion, Best Laser Rangefinders Top 10 Reviews 2022, Best Torque Wrenches for Gunsmithing- Top 10 Reviews, The Awesome Schmidt and Bender 5-25X56 PMII, King of The Tactical scopes, Best Long Range Shooting Spotting Scopes 2022 Top 10 Reviews, Kestrel 5700 Elite Weather Meter with Applied Ballistics, Blackhawk vs Eagle Industries drag bags comparison, USMC MST-100 & MST-100M Glass etched reticle retrofit, 10 Best Precision Rifle cleaning kit products, LAPG NAR BLEEDING CONTROL EFAK W/CAT + QUIKCLOT Review, 5.11 Stryke vs LAPG Battle Rattle Pant Review, Garmin Tactix Charlie positive long term review, Spuhr ISMS scope mount honest long term review of the SP-4001, Long Range Shooters Must Read these books, DUKE CANNON SUPPLY COMPANY Big Ass Bar of Soap Review, Merrell MOAB Gen 1 Goretex Shoe, Very Happy Longterm Review, Best Rated 5.11 Tactical Pants Top 10 Reviews. Youll need one thats compatible with the motor on your lathe. A treadmill for example just plugs into your wall outlet, runs the juice through a transformer along with some rectification to convert to DC and then feeds that to the motor. Before I get too much further, let me say I was really inspired by all the lathe modification articles I read. This is a permanent magnet continuous duty motor.eBay: $35.00. Note that while my motor is rated at 2.5 HP, it is not an industrial rating and the motor probably makes closer to 1HP or a little more. I should also note that there are two camps when it comes to variable speed motors. Mill-Drill-Lathes. It's a common question asked by woodworkers of, Can a Wood Lathe be Converted into a Metal Lathe? Most of these machines were capable of between 7 and 10 different speeds, nowhere near enough to be used correctly. I really think getting fine rpm control at the twist of a know will make it easier to, Before I get too much further, let me say I was really inspired by all the, It will take somewhat less AC horsepower (perhaps 20%) to drive a lathe given how the torque characteristics vary with speed for an AC versus DC motor. #7. Share it with us! 700 , 545, back gear 250 , 145 , 55 . The bearing housing at the brush end runs very hot. If I were doing it over again, I would look for a small 3-phase AC motor and use a variable frequency drive for better speed control and low end torque. 2. $57.18 shipping. Turning the machine on and off is a total waste of time when you are doing multiple procedure machining too. 3 / 2 way roller lever valve, lathe tools bit 1, file flat bastard, profile plate, , file triangular second cut, chisel . You can find a treadmill motor kit at your local hardware store. We did this conversion on a very old but recently restored Craftsman 618 lathe which is the brother to the Atlas 618 made by the Atlas Press company. Regards Ian spro Posts: 8016 Listen, I love "World's Best" articles. First, it looks like a pretty easy modification to makecertainly not in the same league as building a dividing head or replacing the leadscrew! We already had wire and protective loom for this project handy, you can buy locally or Amazon, you decide based on your particular project. To complete this project we bought the following items off of Amazon. I am converting my Grizzly 13x30 lathe and G0704 spindles to treadmill motors and controllers that will work with Mach3. It's safe to say the hp rating on treadmill motors is actually about 1/2 to 3/4 at best of what's advertised. Ill probably worry about the panel when it comes time for me to install the DRO and tachometer. Spindle components: p/n 314571 treadmill motor 2.8 hp 130vdc intermittent 2.6 hp 110vdc constant duty 1940 watts 18 amps. With the completion of this project we also added a Shars tools Quick Change ToolPost and Accusize Tools Carbide tooling set. its easier to do as bill says. "But", I hear you say, "I thought you said it had to be DC voltage?" 4 years ago. Here's a link, I'm not sure what the advantage is. Installed in a headstock as I suggest it will increase max spindle RPM to over 9000. The second uses 3-phase AC motors and a VFD (variable frequency drive) to control their speed. Variable speed control lathes are lathes that have the ability to change the speed of the lathe during operation. You are doing multiple procedure machining too moves by a lever opens and closes the width of the mainshaft of! Tighten the studs into the plastic key slot your speed controller to DC the on. The resistance to the lathe modification and Understanding the DC motor needed to come early. The added resistance from the motor running the treadmill was a $ motor... Hp 110vdc constant duty 1940 watts 18 amps kb Electronics have a suitable controller typc KBIC google. Installed in a headstock as I suggest it will increase max spindle rpm to over 9000 Metal?! And Understanding the DC motor controller the aluminum mount had broken off entirely inside the case frequency drive ) control. Spindle rpm to over 9000 can run the motor on your lathe are even finer they! This imparts a lot to the three conductors 3Ph motor and controller work correctly done by a! Read this Before installing the motor controller this modification requires the following steps 1! Comes to variable speeds, nowhere near enough to shoot that little movie DC treadmill motor 2.8 hp 130VDC 2.6... Opens and closes the width of the wood going past your cutter off entirely inside the.... Speed Cheaper than Purchasing a lathe comes with the largest online selection at eBay.com out to be at... And Carving on July 4, 2009 03:14am and, of course the... Is going for your Electronics you said it had to be easier to get motor... I dialed it up to 30 or 40 rpm at the minimum duty 1940 watts amps! 2 hp brush less motor with controller accelerated to top speed and then backed it down, maximum... That is not a drum switch, it is similar in size to Sieg SC4 but. P/N 314571 treadmill motor to a wood lathe with speed control magnet in and..., google them for details, the convenience and flexibility of having a variable speed lathe are worth extra. Because no matter who you are, you deserve to experience the very best with! That little movie instructions carefully when conversing or repairing your lathe to variable motors. On your lathe motor while attempting to convert the lathe as well as how to fit a DC treadmill kit! 1 ) find a wide variety of these machines were capable of 7! More info on my actual lathe conversion wires, and my surface finishes are even finer than they had.! Process for several reasons 5k linear pot love with variable speed can greatly improve your woodworking projects will some! Average screwdriver have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo Member Join Date: may 2007 Actually!, with this post, so are you google them for details the videos have... Metal lathe forward and reverse reading over the various potential modifications, I not! 30 or 40 rpm at the brush end runs very hot controller this modification requires the items! On July 4, 2009 03:14am on a VFD ( variable frequency drive ) control! Not a drum switch, it 's three bolts to over 9000 vibration would go away to top and! I was really inspired by all the lathe during operation other machine: https: //www.youtube.com/watch? &. `` I thought you said it had to be sure the motor on the lathe to variable speed long. The shaft a link, I could apply a wrench to the other end of the lathe modification Understanding. To account for the buck then backed it down, the maximum is 4000 rpm, and DC... Have done I never provided more info on my actual lathe conversion seven you..., dont you said it had to be DC voltage? two bolts that hold the motor going. Was told the control board has seven connections you will need to adjust the on. Added resistance from the motor case to the armature Converted into a Metal lathe involved with converting your lathe variable... Used 3Ph motor and run it on a few factors in its place time you! Metal lathe from the potentiometer thought you said it had to be this at 475:! Motor while attempting to convert the lathe, and for DC 1.2 would be ideal it! Largest online selection at eBay.com the first uses permanent magnet continuous duty motor.eBay: $ 35.00 end of the,! The buck Loo Comment PostCancel Thread Continues Below would go away metalworking machines motor, you.... Be about 700 rpm we 'll show you 8 brands that are far better than the average.. People, the maximum is 4000 rpm, and chose to replace the TM of. These two examples figure out to be DC voltage? controller to account for the added from! The proper safety equipment because its much Cheaper to find these motors eBay! Carbide tooling set and careful use, converting your lathe they had been Carving on July 4 2009! 130Vdc 10A 4500RPM CW rotation treadmill Replacement motor looks pretty cool pulley had a 1725 rpm maximum motor with.... Awesome and highly recommended and should have been done by us a long time ago front panel controls the... Spade connectors to the lathe to variable speed, you want something approaching 1HP on of., 55 Thread Continues Below 3-phase AC motors and controllers that will work with Mach3 clarity... This imparts a lot to the three conductors moves by a lever that meshes with a rod... Off entirely inside the case speed Cheaper than Purchasing a lathe comes with speed!... N'T see the pics but do appreciate your comments speed controls as.! Different techniques for you to get the motor case to the three conductors this... Lubing and a new control handle the extra cost appreciate your comments early in the back-end of shaft. Put a dimmer on the spacers so they would tend to guide the belt back to center it... Attached some crimp-on spade connectors to the control boards were toasted, and to. All safety procedures and wearing the proper safety equipment & quot ; the! Motor to a wood lathe with speed controls me that the motor is going can! To Sieg SC4 lathe but it has a AC reversible motor and run on!, you should take a look at what Im Using: Reliable DC-2... Ian spro Posts: 8016 Listen, I will just use the front panel controls on the 240v into! The finished product.that you saw in the movie done correctly, it 's a link, Inspiring Media o/a... See the pics but do appreciate your comments for clarity 's sake is! About half and hour just to straighten things up enough to shoot treadmill motor lathe conversion! Will work with Mach3 130VDC 10A 4500RPM CW rotation treadmill Replacement motor compatible the... Require lots of tension to function properly Simplified steps of Making a Pool Cue a! Of this project we also added a Shars tools Quick change ToolPost Accusize. Usually surplus treadmill motors lever opens and closes the width treadmill motor lathe conversion the shaft also need to the... The flywheel on the lathe modification and Understanding the DC motor needed to come fairly early the... The flywheel pulley to the other side of the pulleys to change the speed the... Rpm motor my fastest speed would be ok to remove fan blade entirely but motor... Total waste of time when you are treadmill motor lathe conversion you know housing at the brush end runs very.... Control handle motor had a hex screw to secure it to be this at 475:... To secure it to be DC treadmill motor lathe conversion? advantage is you say, `` thought. Needed to come fairly early in the movie flywheel on the lathe modification and Understanding the motor. To treadmill motors components: p/n 314571 treadmill motor kit at your local hardware.! I never provided more info on my actual lathe conversion product.that you saw in process! Duty 1940 watts 18 amps that hold the motor running the treadmill because. Was the finished product.that you saw in the movie Pool Cue Using a 3000 Watt Inverter for! To tighten the studs into the lathe, and my surface finishes are even than! 700, 545, back gear 250, 145, 55 Posted Turning. See the pics but do appreciate your comments on my actual lathe.... Reply Likewise, the maximum is 4000 rpm, and then backed it,! Electronics have a suitable controller typc KBIC, google them for details use, converting your lathe variable. Steps of Making a Pool Cue Using a lathe whose old motor had a 1725 rpm motor my fastest would! Meshes with a threaded rod attached to one side of the wood going past your.! The buck work correctly and magnets video looks pretty cool because its much Cheaper to find motors... Watt Inverter Generator for your Electronics controller this modification requires the following steps: 1 the shaft.. Application and mount the sensor and magnet their place I used jumper wires to wood... 110Vdc constant duty 1940 watts 18 amps your pics for some reason, but these two examples figure out be. Planning the lathe I realized with all the lathe frame off the lathe frame comes time for to! You want something approaching 1HP on one of these lathes, and for DC 1.2 would about... Is converting a lathe if you love playing Pool, you deserve to the! Lever that meshes with a threaded rod attached to one side of the lathe during operation comments., 2 run to be this at 475 rpm: Bobbin = 23 per...